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26Origination? - Page 2 Empty Re: Origination? Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:43 am

Narurin

Narurin
Spectrum Addict
That's a nice thought Derr Man. I quite like it. Everything ends but there is always a new beginning.

http://www.twitter.com/vanderde

27Origination? - Page 2 Empty Re: Origination? Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:46 am

Emilia

Emilia
Administrator
Yeah, I used to believe that. It would be nice if it were true.

http://spectrum.niceboard.org

28Origination? - Page 2 Empty Re: Origination? Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:50 am

Narurin

Narurin
Spectrum Addict
It can't be unproven though. Same as God or any other religious concept really

http://www.twitter.com/vanderde

29Origination? - Page 2 Empty Re: Origination? Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:07 am

Emilia

Emilia
Administrator
Can't be proven either.

http://spectrum.niceboard.org

30Origination? - Page 2 Empty Re: Origination? Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:11 am

Narurin

Narurin
Spectrum Addict
That's why a lot of this stuff is just a matter of personal belief and faith.

http://www.twitter.com/vanderde

31Origination? - Page 2 Empty Re: Origination? Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:36 am

TheSquigle

TheSquigle
Took The First Step Towards Spectrum Addiction
Interesting. So there is a consequence here that the question of God is both unprovable and undisprovable

I would like to disagree with both of these. I do not think God has been proven or disproven, but give physics or philosophy a few more decades and it might well be. In the mean time:

We sure can try to Disprove God:
(P1) An essentially omniscient being, God, exists. (assumption for indirect proof)
(P2) God is and always has been omniscient. (from P1)
(P3) A being's omniscience entails, among other things, that it has all experiential knowledge. (necessary truth)
(P4) Having all experiential knowledge entails knowing what it is like to learn. (necessary truth)
(P5) God knows and always has known what it is like to learn. (from P2-P4)
(P6) Knowing what it is like to learn entails having learned something. (necessary truth)
(P7) Having learned something entails that one has gone from a state of not-knowing to a state of knowing. (necessary truth)
(P8) God has gone from a state of not-knowing to a state of knowing. (from P5-P7)
(P9) There was a time when God was in a state of not-knowing. (from P8)
(P10) God has not always been omniscient. (from P9)
(P11) God has always been omniscient and has not always been omniscient. (from P2 & P10)
(C) Therefore, God does not exist. (from P1-P11)

And we sure can try to Prove him:

(1) Everything that exists has an explanation of its existence, either in the necessity of its own nature or in an external cause.

(2) If the universe has an explanation of its existence, that explanation is God.

(3) The universe exists.

(4) Therefore, the universe has an explanation of its existence (from 1, 3).

(5) Therefore, the explanation of the universe’s existence is God (from 2, 4).

32Origination? - Page 2 Empty Re: Origination? Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:50 am

Emilia

Emilia
Administrator
TheSquigle wrote:Interesting. So there is a consequence here that the question of God is both unprovable and undisprovable


We never said that.

We have been saying the WHOLE time that we can't prove or disprove anything RIGHT NOW.

http://spectrum.niceboard.org

33Origination? - Page 2 Empty Re: Origination? Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:56 am

Emilia

Emilia
Administrator
DOUBLE POST

(1) The first possible place of contention is P1, where a critic could reject committing to God's essential omniscience—the notion that, as an essential property, omniscience necessarily (and thus always) belongs to God. This imagined critic might think that at one time God was almost omniscient, and shortly thereafter acquired his last two pieces of knowledge—X, and what it is like to learn. However, this strange position has no obvious candidate for X, and in any case does not seem to be a real threat to the argument because P1 is a necessary truth by stipulation of the traditional conception of God as essentially omniscient.

(2) Another possible place of contention is P3—perhaps experiential knowledge (knowing what it is like to experience something) is not included in omniscience. For instance, perhaps omniscience only entails having all propositional knowledge. In that case omniscience only entails that a being knows all true propositions and believes no false ones—not that it has all experiential knowledge.[1] However, this objection questionably assumes that experiential knowledge does not count as a genuine kind of knowledge, contrary to our common linguistic practices. For instance, assertions like "I know what it is like to lose someone close to me," "I know what it is like to be nauseous," or "I know what it is like to be an atheist" seem unproblematic.[2] We also quite frequently talk about learning what something is like, which implies acquiring information or knowledge about the world. Moreover, people can sometimes participate in discussions based on similarities in experience, while those lacking the relevant experiences cannot participate in the same way. This suggests that the "experienced" individuals post rubber ducky and receive 5 EXP possess genuine information (or knowledge) about the world that the "nonexperienced" individuals do not possess.[3] Thus there is a strong presumption that experiential knowledge counts as genuine knowledge, and this should be taken for granted until good epistemological grounds for rejecting it are provided. Until then, the claim that omniscience can only involve propositional knowledge is unjustified.[4]

A critic might also contest P3 by rejecting a literal definition of "all-knowing." Perhaps we should impose logical boundaries such that "all-knowing" means "knowing everything that is logically possible for a given being to know." This revised definition of omniscience entails the following:

(P3') A being's omniscience entails, among other things, that it has all the experiential knowledge that it is logically possible for it to have.

But this allows for the falsity of P3: it may be the case that some experiential knowledge is logically impossible for an omniscient being to have, so a being's omniscience may not entail that it has all experiential knowledge. On the other hand, this revised definition of "all-knowing"—besides being counterintuitive—has a major drawback: it allows for inanimate objects that know nothing, or beings that know almost nothing, to count as omniscient beings.[5] Rocks and grains of sand cannot know anything by definition, so they know everything that is logically possible for them to know—and so would count as omniscient on this revised definition. Or consider the being McIgnorant, who by definition has extremely limited knowledge, yet is still "omniscient" because it knows everything that is logically possible for it to know. Obviously, these are not true examples of omniscience, so the revised definition of omniscience should be rejected in favor of the literal definition, leaving P3 secure.

Furthermore, even if the revised definition of omniscience were correct, making P3 dubious, my argument could be salvaged by introducing the following proposition:

(L) It is logically possible for God to know what it is like to learn.

This proposition, when conjoined with P2 and P3', entails P5, so the remainder of the argument remains intact. As such, the rejection of P3 based on revising the definition of omniscience is not sufficient to undermine my argument; instead, the rejection of L is also required. However, rejecting L has some serious drawbacks. For starters, if it is logically impossible for God to know what it is like to learn, then he cannot know something that (a) all humans can know and (b) almost all humans do know. But this conflicts with the following premises[6]:

(Q1) An omniscient being knows everything that nonomniscient beings know.
(Q2) God knows everything that humans know.

These premises are not only intuitive, but they have the feel of conceptual truths; it makes little sense to think that nonomniscient beings (like humans) could know something that an omniscient being (like God) would not know. It is much more natural to think that a being who does not know something that is known to a nonomniscient being is itself not omniscient, for there is at least one genuine piece of knowledge that it does not possess, even if it is exponentially more knowledgeable than other nonomniscient beings. What's more, the denial of L entails that God does not know something that is extremely easy for us humans to know, something that even the least intelligent humans can and do know. It is very strange, to say the least, for an extremely intelligent being like God to be incapable of knowing something that we humans can easily acquire, and that even the least intelligent humans know. Of course, these odd and seemingly senseless consequences of denying L could be true because L (as far as we can tell) could be false; but given such bizarre consequences, it is more plausible to avoid them by accepting L, which in turn leaves my argument intact.

(3) The only other place of contention that I can foresee is P6, despite its strong intuitive appeal and supporting empirical evidence. Conceivably, a critic could argue, a being could know what it is like to learn without having learned something; and perhaps God's mind contains the experiential knowledge of what it is like to learn without him ever having had to learn something. For if having the knowledge of what it is like to learn is a certain state of mind, then perhaps God's mind (unlike ours) has this state of mind—a state of knowing what it is like to learn without ever having to learn anything. Thus, P6 is conceivably false.

In response, we might argue that the falsity of P6 is not a genuine possibility because P6 is a conceptual truth. Its antecedent, "knowing what it is like to learn," refers to having experiential knowledge of learning—i.e., experiential knowledge with the activity of learning as its content. Experiential knowledge, by definition, is knowledge of having or going through an experience; so it requires actually going through an experience. Thus, experiential knowledge of learning requires having the experience of learning; and Major loves pineapple. Reply with pineapple to receive 10 EXP because learning is an activity in which something is learned, having the experience of learning is nothing more than having the experience of learning something. Moreover, this (genuine) experience of learning something has, quite obviously, learning something as its content. This means that having this experience requires the learning of something. Therefore, the consequent of P6 ("having learned something") appears to conceptually follow from its antecedent ("knowing what it is like to learn"), which would make P6 a conceptual truth.


Yeah, anyone can do that.



Last edited by Emilia on Wed Oct 27, 2010 12:11 pm; edited 2 times in total

http://spectrum.niceboard.org

34Origination? - Page 2 Empty Re: Origination? Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:59 am

TheSquigle

TheSquigle
Took The First Step Towards Spectrum Addiction
Oh wait, sorry, I didn't mean to write consequence (spell check epic fail) What I was trying to say could come out like this: there is a general agreement here that God can be neither proven or disproven

EDIT: deleted the rest

35Origination? - Page 2 Empty Re: Origination? Wed Oct 27, 2010 12:01 pm

Emilia

Emilia
Administrator
Just because something can't be proven now doesn't mean it can't.






PS. My name is Emilia. The fact you are spelling it wrong is driving me NUTS.

http://spectrum.niceboard.org

36Origination? - Page 2 Empty Re: Origination? Wed Oct 27, 2010 12:04 pm

TheSquigle

TheSquigle
Took The First Step Towards Spectrum Addiction
Yeah, sorry about that. One day Ill learn to spell well. Until then, my computers spell check is a lifesaver. Odd that Emilia isn't in it.

37Origination? - Page 2 Empty Re: Origination? Wed Oct 27, 2010 12:12 pm

The Derr Man

The Derr Man
Moderator
Haha that was quite a ninja edit, i saw you said "Odd that Emelia isn't in it." instead Wink

http://steamcommunity.com/id/thederrman

38Origination? - Page 2 Empty Re: Origination? Wed Oct 27, 2010 12:13 pm

TheSquigle

TheSquigle
Took The First Step Towards Spectrum Addiction
Embarassed

39Origination? - Page 2 Empty Re: Origination? Wed Oct 27, 2010 12:47 pm

KevlarShock

KevlarShock
Double Century
Hey Peeps! just wanted to say MY OPINION
...(First a little Background) - I was born into Catholicism, and kinda brought up with all the ideas about that, been through different schools and have heard different sides about those religions... and now... I'm fed up with people, so I choose what I want to believe in... I dont Believe in Religion, but I do Believe in God.


Even though a few multiple questions have been raised, some may or may not have been answered, but in the end it comes down to ourselves, A lot of what we believe in is what we've been fed. You're not going to find someone who would think the Big Bang Theory is legit if they've been raised in a strict Christian (or whatever the case) religion.

Sguigle I know how you've asked "how you think the world 'Came to be' AND why do you think that." but I can see that most people have just given their opinions on what they may believe is true, sometimes as people we dont need a justification to have a belief or to ignore a certain theory or religion, it's just what comes down to the centre of our own being.

Reading back at the posts, maybe some of us just DON'T KNOW, and we'd prefer it if we didnt have to know, and thats perfectly fine. For many people the idea of a God who has made the World and who has written our future, is too much for us, and takes away most of the joy of what we have in the future.
For others they're afraid of a world that doesnt have the guidance of a powerful being, which can make existence scary.


And whatever we choose to believe in is purely based on what we know, and as the Sguigle asks "WHAT DO YOU KNOW?" and the answer is... Nothing! None of us know how our beliefs would be proved, or even be legit. If you have your opinion, that's great, it's your opinion, but thats what being human is, living, believing, having faith, being frightened, looking for guidance and trying to find an answer. and you don't like tough titties! ;D



P.S. (If you're wondering how I believe in God and not Religion... it's cos (my opinion) Religion has been there to give us the guide lines of how to live in a society, wether the wrong or right guide lines, they are there. Throughout time these guide lines were made for the world in their time, the fact that i find most people hypocritical about what they believe in and tell you you're wrong if you dont is what has gotten me turned off from religion. I wanted to know more so I did my research and asking people in their beliefs etc. and I now choose what 'I BELIEVE IS BEST FOR ME' and I think a lot of people have decided to put too many labels on too many things, I do not say that a religion(or their beliefs) or theories are wrong or ridiculous, i just tend to disagree with the people who are too one sighted that they dont give the time or justice to hear another opinion. Hearing "I'm right! You're wrong!" a lot upsets me, and that is because people always fight for what they stand for (even if it's not much) If you have any questions I dont mind answering them. Im not a Catholic, I'm a Person, I just believe in God)


[I've also done my best to make sure I dont offend any one] - if you don't agree with me, it's okay, that's what my post was about...

40Origination? - Page 2 Empty Re: Origination? Thu Oct 28, 2010 4:15 am

martin

martin
Millennium Bug
I like your argument for why God doesn't exist Squigle, but its based on the assumption that God had to learn all knowledge from somwhere. Who ever said that he had to learn it, you were the one who argued to me earlier that things can't just come into and out of existence. If God has always existed then he would have always had all of his knowledge as well. So, your argument is essentially false.

As for you Emilia, I have no **** idea what the **** you are going on about. I think my head went numb trying to understand all of that crap. Either I am very stupid or you like talking ****. But in any case, you have really made me like PINEAPPLES.

As for you KevlarShock, I totally agree with you and understand your point of view, because that is one of the reasons why I don't follow religion. The fact that I don't believe in a God is separate to that, people can believe in God and not follow religion, that is perfectly fine. Everyone is free to have their own beliefs.

One reason why I don't like the idea of a God is because if one were to exist, then it would imply that he created everything and planned for everything to happen. In that case, everything that will happen to us has already been decided and we have no real choice. Our fates are set and there is nothing we can do about it. As Neo said in The Matrix, I don't like the idea of fate because it makes me feel like that I don't have a choice and the existence of a God implies that fate exists imo.

Saying that the big bang just happened randomly for no real reason supports the randomness of the world around us and means that we do indeed have a choice about what will happen to us as nothing is set.

41Origination? - Page 2 Empty Re: Origination? Thu Oct 28, 2010 5:06 am

DeMoN

DeMoN
Century
Origination? - Page 2 God10
its hard to figure out what happened at the time of the universe starting, hard to imagine god was like... sup im a make everything now, and hard to imagine that pure energy created out of nothingness caused an explosion that created everything that we know of.

42Origination? - Page 2 Empty Re: Origination? Thu Oct 28, 2010 5:29 am

Emilia

Emilia
Administrator
You know that big list that Squigle put down, the ones with the C next it?

He copied it straight from a random website.
On the exact same page was the counter argument for that list, so I copied it in.

I had not expected anyone to read it.

http://spectrum.niceboard.org

43Origination? - Page 2 Empty Re: Origination? Thu Oct 28, 2010 5:34 am

TheSquigle

TheSquigle
Took The First Step Towards Spectrum Addiction
Lol DeMon

Hey Martin.

I thought I should say, its not really my argument. I just went to infidels.org and reasonablefaith.org to get some argument outlines. My posting them doesn't mean I think the arguments work. Emilias long post was just herr going to the page I got the argument from and posting the rest of it, and I recommend you read through it again and try to understand it.

Now when you say that the argument doesn't work, I think I agree with you, but not for the same reason. you say

but its based on the assumption that God had to learn all knowledge from somwhere

Not quite. Actually, he starts with the assumption that if there is God, he would have always known everything. And then goes on to say 'well, if you know what it is like to learn, then you must have learned something' and 'if you have learned something, you must have at one time not know everything' which neatly leads to the conclusion that a God couldn't have at all times known everything. Hence, there can't be an always omniscient God.

My problem is with premise six.

(P6) Knowing what it is like to learn entails having learned something. (necessary truth)

Which I think is disputable. Why not think that a God might know what it is like to learn just as a result of sheer omniscience? The author of the argument has something to say about that, as Emilia showed in her post.

In response, we might argue that the falsity of P6 is not a genuine possibility because P6 is a conceptual truth. Its antecedent, "knowing what it is like to learn," refers to having experiential knowledge of learning—i.e., experiential knowledge with the activity of learning as its content. Experiential knowledge, by definition, is knowledge of having or going through an experience; so it requires actually going through an experience. Thus, experiential knowledge of learning requires having the experience of learning; and Major loves pineapple. Reply with pineapple to receive 10 EXP because learning is an activity in which something is learned, having the experience of learning is nothing more than having the experience of learning something...

I've underlined the bit where I think he ever so gently slips up. IF this is an omniscient being we are talking about, then he would have all knowledge found in anything he knows about (Like us). Do we know what it is like to learn? Then why not think that a God could also have that knowledge, not by virtue of learning himself, but by virtue of having taken it from us.

Just my two cents on said argument.

EDIT:
I don't think of the websites as random. Infidels.org is the best site for powerfull, philosophically astute athiestic content I am aware of. ReaonableFiath is the best site for powerfully, philosophically astute Christian content I am aware of. If you think you know of better ones, I would appreciate the links Smile

44Origination? - Page 2 Empty Re: Origination? Thu Oct 28, 2010 5:44 am

MaJoR

MaJoR
Double Century
All I know is I'm gonna take a bath and read all these replies finally... Where is my rubber ducky?

Then write my essay and have a pina colada. But I need to go gets some ice and pineapples.



+15?

http://davelm.com

45Origination? - Page 2 Empty Re: Origination? Thu Oct 28, 2010 11:32 am

martin

martin
Millennium Bug
lol Emilia, I had a feeling that you copied that crap from somewhere, I don't think you would have written all of that yourself.

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