Hi everyone. I'm new here. Thanks Kevlarshock for inviting me on.

Here is a question I would like to put to you all: How did our universe come into existence? Did it even do that, or is the universe infinitely old?

I'm not here to propose an answer; just to see what everybody else might think. If possible, don't just tell me what you think happened, tell me why you think it? Why should I believe it?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

I believe in the big bang theory, that the universe made itself spontaneously out of random chance for no apparent reason, exploding into all space, time, matter and energy in an instant.

This makes more sense to me than a God creating the universe because I find it hard to believe that a sentient being watches over all of us and controls everything. If a God really exists then it poses the question of how the God came into existence, where it is and how it is alive. Once you start to ask these questions, you start to see how increasingly ridiculous the idea of a God must be. The big bang makes more feasible sense to me because it means that everything randomly and spontaneously occured out of nothing instead of a man in the sky magically making everything.

There is no real reason or theory as far as I know as to how the big bang happened, maybe we will work it out in the future, but it doesn't really matter in my opinion anyway. We don't need to know everything in the world.

I think the idea of a God is utterly ridiculous and that is one of the many reasons as to why I don't care much for religion, but I respect other people's point of view to this subject and I can acknowlegde the possibility of a God until it can be proven that it doesn't exist.

I have always believed in Big Bang theory, it has evidence behind it and whatnot. I've never thought that God literally created the world in 7 days.

I used to think that God caused the big bang to happen. I thought that God inputted all the rules of biology, chemistry and physics etc into the mechanics of the world and then pressed "go", causing the big bang. It was my way of consolidating my religion with what I knew about science. Of course under that theory humans are no more special than any other organism, because we just evolved while God was watching - he had no hand in our actual creation. But I think that's a comforting thought in a way, we're the masters of the planet on our accord and not because some divine being made it like that.

Now I'm not sure what I believe, but I still think my "God computer theory" has some merit lol. I identify more as being agnostic rather than Catholic (which is the religion I was brought up in, I still know a lot about it, and I'm thankful to the church for some things as well).

martin wrote:I believe in the big bang theory, that the universe made itself spontaneously out of random chance for no apparent reason, exploding into all space, time, matter and energy in an instant.

This makes more sense to me than a God creating the universe because I find it hard to believe that a sentient being watches over all of us and controls everything. If a God really exists then it poses the question of how the God came into existence, where it is and how it is alive. Once you start to ask these questions, you start to see how increasingly ridiculous the idea of a God must be. The big bang makes more feasible sense to me because it means that everything randomly and spontaneously occured out of nothing instead of a man in the sky magically making everything.

There is no real reason or theory as far as I know as to how the big bang happened, maybe we will work it out in the future, but it doesn't really matter in my opinion anyway. We don't need to know everything in the world.

I think the idea of a God is utterly ridiculous and that is one of the many reasons as to why I don't care much for religion, but I respect other people's point of view to this subject and I can acknowlegde the possibility of a God until it can be proven that it doesn't exist.

Have my humanist views rubbed off on you Martin? Because that is what I was going to say, especially

"that the universe made itself spontaneously out of random chance for no apparent reason"

"maybe we will work it out in the future, but it doesn't really matter in my opinion anyway. We don't need to know everything in the world."

"but I respect other people's point of view to this subject and I can acknowlegde the possibility of a God until it can be proven that it doesn't exist."

lol no not really emilia. My opinion has always been like that really for as long as I can remember...

hahahaha. Not since the last time we had had a big talk about it.

yeah, but that's just because I like to talk **** and disagree with everything that everybody else says and troll.

I have always thought that, trust me.

durp

When I asked my question, I took the truth of the big bang theory as pretty much a given (is there even an alternative any more?) and I was expecting to have a discussion about the physics of it- are there previous universes before ours? Or was there negative time? Or was it out of absolutely nothing? Does the Horizon Problem give us cause to doubt?

Instead, this conversation seems to have turned to religion. OK then:

If a God really exists then it poses the question of how the God came into existence

Martin, do you beleive that absolutely everything that exists must always have come into existence? If not, then your question can be completely avoided. If so, why do you beleive that?

that the universe made itself spontaneously out of random chance for no apparent reason

This view intrigues me: Neither of us have ever seen anything come into existence out of nothing. If the universe came into existence out of absolutely noting for no reason whatsoever, Shouldn't we expect to observe other things doing the same?

You raise very good points squigle...

As for the big bang from a scientific perspective, I believe in two possibilities.

1. That the big bang occured out of nothing and that before that there was absolutely nothing, no time, no space... reality just randomly appeared out of nothing...

2. That there is an infinite number of parallel universes in space and they are constantly being born and destroyed...

Both explanations seem just as feasible as the other to me, but I guess the second one makes more sense, since it gives the whole idea of it some form of equilibrium. That maybe the destruction of one universe triggers to beginning of another or multiple other universes... Like maybe splitting the atom for instance. The universes could be seen like atoms themselves, small parts of something bigger.

But in any case, these are just ideas and possible explanations. There is no real right or wrong answer. All I really believe in is that there was a big bang and that there is no God.

The origin of the universe is a discussion of science and religion. There is no way that we could really discuss this type of thing without bringing religion into it in my opinion.

As for your other question squigle... I do believe that everything must have come into existence some how. Everything is made and destroyed... Whether it is made from something else or not. I find it hard to believe that God just existed forever and God just decided at some moment to create reality and time and space and start a universe... The idea of a God suggests that he has a mind, that means that he must have thought of creating the universe then, why would he even do that? What reason would he have? It all seems rather pointless to me...

Saying that the universe just appeared randomly out of nothing makes more sense to me because it doesn't have to give it any good reason, except that things just happen. The universe seems pretty random to me the way it is. I mean maybe if everyone was exactly the same and there was hardly any difference in anything and everything in the universe was exactly ordered in a specific way then the existence of a God would make more sense, but it simply isn't that way. The world is very random as it is.

As for the universe spontaneously appearing out of nothing out of random chance, that makes sense to me because I see the universe itself as its own body, so everything in the universe is made out of something else, but who ever said that the universe itself had to be made out of anything.


Cheese pies hurp durrrrrrrrrrp

You cannot have this discussion without religion, because that is what a lot of people believe. That is the given.

Besides, we scientifically don't know how it happened so I don't like to guess.

Martin, upon carefully reading your post, I don't think you've answered my second question- Perhaps I should rephrase it. You say that the universe appeared spontaneously out of nothing for no reason at all, or that said view is a possibility at any rate. I have never seen a pencil, or a house, or an elephant, or a universe, or anything at all, appear out of nowhere, and neither have you.

Well, if universes can and do appear out of nothing for no reason, why not? Surely we should expect to see other things doing the same? How could it be that only certain Kinds of things get to pop into existence?

As for your other question squigle... I do believe that everything must have come into existence some how. Everything is made and destroyed... Whether it is made from something else or not.

Right. Now: why?

The idea of a God suggests that he has a mind, that means that he must have thought of creating the universe then, why would he even do that? What reason would he have? It all seems rather pointless to me...

So, if there was a God, and if he created the universe, what reason would he have? hmm... No idea. But I can think of a few guesses: Maybe he wanted to create other creatures to be with him; Maybe he wants to create people just so he can show off his supposed awesomeness; Maybe he just wanted someone to talk to; Maybe he was bored. I don't know. But is there really no reason you can think of?

I mean maybe if everyone was exactly the same and there was hardly any difference in anything and everything in the universe was exactly ordered in a specific way then the existence of a God would make more sense, but it simply isn't that way.

So you think that A God would create a universe where everyone was exactly the same... why?

The way I see it, everything is created and destroyed, everything has a beginning and an end. Nothing lives forever. I have no reason or proof behind that, that is just my opinion.

When I say that the universe came into existence out of nothing, I am including reality itself. The idea of reality and space and time did not exist before. It only came to be into existence when the universe began, so how could the universe have been made out of anything in that case when there was nothing to begin with.

And there actually is one other example of something coming into existence out of nothing. In quantum physics it is said that we can only determine the speed or position of an electron around an atom, but never both and one theory in quantum physics is that electrons only exist because we perceive them, when we do not perceive them they are simply not there. In that case, electrons are continuously coming into and out of existence, I can't go into it in any more detail, because I don't know that much about it and I can't be bothered looking it up.


hurp dirp hirp diiiiirrrrrrrrrrrp

The way I see it, everything is created and destroyed, everything has a beginning and an end. Nothing lives forever. I have no reason or proof behind that, that is just my opinion.

OK.. So, you think that if there is a God, then he must have something that created him, because he must have come into existence, because all things have to come into existence, because....well just because.

Well, for all I know you may be right when you say that a God must have a source of its existence, but you sure haven't provided a reason for thinking that. Martin, please don't take this the wrong way, I'm not trying to criticise you, but I don't think you've thought this through.

In quantum physics it is said that we can only determine the speed or position of an electron around an atom, but never both and one theory in quantum physics is that electrons only exist because we perceive them

Ah, yes, quantum mechanics. I don't want to have an argument with anybody on this subject, because, to put it in the words of Richard Feynman "If you think you understand quantum mechanics, then you don't understand quantum mechanics." But that said, I did a unit in it as part of my Physics degree I'm doing, so I do know a thing or two about it. While we do have lot of subatomic particles popping into existence randomly (we call it 'Quantum Foam'), they are be described by Heisenbergs uncertanty principle

(EDIT: that picture didn't come out right. Sorry)

Which includes Plancks constant- One of those values set by the universe. So the Quantum Foam isn't at all akin to things being brought into existence out of nothing at all.

Hmm yeah I remember Heisenberg's uncertainty principle. That was just something that I read somewhere about the electrons, but it doesn't really matter anyway.

I suppose not. But we shouldn't try and argue quantum physics- Its not like I know all that much about it either. My degree I'm doing should mean I know a lot more about it by next year.

Lets talk about subjects that don't need a degree instead. I regularly hear about this idea that the universe just began uncaused, and its always confused me why its so popular. I'm not trying to call it silly, I just want to understand how somebody can believe it. I mean, if your visiting a friends house and notice a wardrobe that wasn't there before, and you ask where it came from, and your friend tells you that it magically burst into existence for no reason at all a few days ago, would you believe him/her? Of course not? So if wardrobes can't begin to exist uncaused, how much more so universes?

And, as I asked before, How could it be that some kinds of things can begin to exist uncaused, but other things can't? What determines what kinds of things get to randomly appear and which don't? I mean, this is literally nothing were talking about here, how can it decide?

Also, isn't your view worse than magic. I mean, when Harry Potter waves his wand and makes a rabbit appear, you still have Harry, and you still have the wand. But in your view, its just nothing- poof -universe. By comparison, your view makes magic look positively scientific.

Emelia or Narurin, your thoughts would be appreciated here also

I see your point Squigle, maybe the universe has always existed and never began or ended, but I don't believe in the idea of a God.

Overthinking this is not a good thing. Yes, we want answers. Do we need them? No.

I believe things exist for a reason and we don't know why. Not knowing why is not a bad thing at all.

You can have you theories and go on about it forever, but you just have to accept the things the way they are.

This conversation seems to be going in circles.

Because no one actually knows how the universe began and why, you can't just be disagreeing with everything Martin says. You have your opinion and he has his.

lol Emilia, I agree with you, but I do think that we should continue to strive to learn the origination of the universe, I mean who know what secrets that may reveal and how it may further the development of the human race.

But my point is, we don't have to. I think thinking forwardly is more important than being caught up in the past.

Knowing and remembering the past is just as important as thinking about the future, so that we the human race don't repeat our mistakes and all that.

Your right, we don't have to discover the origination of the universe, we didn't have to build cars either, but they sure help us a lot. I believe that discovering the origination of the universe would greatly benefit the human race, unless it only revealed the secret to some new super-weapon. But I don't think that that would make much of a difference since the human race already has enough nuclear weapons to be able to destroy the Earth ten times over.

Yes

Thinking about the past is important, when human thinking is involved.

There was not a human that created the big bang, we were just created from it.

For things where a stupid human decision was involved, of course we can't just forget it.

Emelia, I'm surprised to here you say that we should just stop thinking about this. It is by asking, and better yet, answering, hard questions that science advances. If we stopped thinking whenever we got to a hard question, we would still be in the dark ages.

You say we don't need a theory, and I agree. But that shouldn't stop us thinking about it. You say nobody has got a good answer, and you may be right, but I'm sure not going to let that stop me calling out the bad ones. And given that nobody can explain how it could possibly be that one kinds of thing (universes) can pop into existence uncaused, but another kind of thing (elephants) do not, I don't think I have much choice but to say that this is indeed a bad one.

Seriously though, I mean:

1) Either A) All kinds of things come into existence from nothing or B) Some kinds of things do and some don't or C) No kinds of things do

2) We don't observe pens or houses or cars or indeed anything at all bursting into existence out of nothing, so A) can't be true

3) If B) is true, there must be something that decides what does or does not come into existence out of nothing

4) Reality(s) cannot decide what does and does not, because they are a result of things coming into existence out of nothing, so they can't be the cause. Nothing cannot have knowledge or facts or properties, or its not nothing. There is simply nothing left that could decide.

5) So there is nothing that can decide, and B) cannot be true.

Therefore, the only option left is C

Now, if you disagree with me, then tell me what sort of a thing could be doing deciding. How can it be that universe can magically burst into existence but everyday items are not? IF nobody can tell me, how can you believe it?

1. Your attitude puts other people's opinions down.

2. People are entitled to their opinions. You are not willing to see anyone's point of view at all.

3. You ask us to give an opinion and then go on like we never said it.

4. Stop repeating yourself, we heard you the first time.

Think about this before you post again. I do not appreciate it.

lol emilia

dirp hurp dirp

The way I see it squigle is that the universe includes reality itself and that it started at the big bang, therefore before that there must have been nothing. The idea of a god seems ridiculous to me. The fact that every day objects such as your tv can't just pop into and out of existence now is simply because the big bang already happened, there is reality now, there wasn't before, there are laws of physics now, but not before.

People have no idea what happened before the big bang, except that a lot of smart scientists are pretty sure that it did indeed happen.

That is the best way that I can explain my reasoning behind this, if you think its ridiculous that's fine. Its just an opinion and everybody has the right to their own opinion.

I believe that the creation of the universe is like the religious concept know as Samsara, where it is the cycle of life (birth, life, death and rebirth) also known as reincarnation.

The universe is born by what ever means (the big bang is a most plausible possibility) the universe lives for billions, trillions, quadrillion and so on, then it dies as all the stars die and for whatever reason again it gets re-born.